Lore talk:Apocrypha

Reference to "The Library of Babel"

Something I thought was interesting to note (though it may belong in Trivia section of the article):
In literary terms, the realm of Apocrypha is a 'living' version of Jorge Luis Borges' "The Library of Babel." Aside from the fact that I used the term 'living' ironically (for the realm might as well be dying; the image of moldy, old tomes bleeding ink like black blood into the eternal ocean of acidic, inky nothingness from their rotting, bloated corpses which float like icebergs on the sea of incomprehensible possibility comes to mind.), there is a biological/spiritual component to the Realm of Apocrypha that The Library of Babel doesn't have: Daedra. Despite this, they certainly have three very important things in common; both are realms of potential knowledge, both are traps for the finite mind to become lost in, and both display the futility of attempting to hold great amounts of knowledge and resisting its ever-persistent call of corruption. Zuuk Cyrodiil (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2013 (GMT)

You can propose that here. Note that there's also been a proposal for a Lovecraft reference, but it has not been included on the page. Vely^►t►e 20:19, 14 November 2013 (GMT)

I'm not really sure it qualifies as an Easter Egg but I will make a note of it on the talk page because you mentioned it. Zuuk Cyrodiil (talk) 22:09, 16 November 2013 (GMT)

It would be a reference to a non-TES thing, which would make it an Easter Egg. The only references to non-TES things that we ever include on pages like this are obvious etymologies, such as with Vilkas or Farkas. Vely^►t►e 00:59, 17 November 2013 (GMT)

Edit Warring

Please discuss the contentious changes here instead of reverting back and forth. Thank you. —Dillonn241 (talk) 21:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:Tarponpet:

… I still disagree that they are separate realms. I know you don’t like it but it is possible and heavily implied by both the look of the geography and the pages’ written lore itself that Apocrypha encompasses both the Archive and the Index Chamber. They are not ‘linked’ because they are connected, even if connected very far away separated by the Black Sea. Please don’t be as stubborn as you are about this - Malkhest's Journal explicitly says “For being just a section of Apocrypha's great library.” This isn’t Snow Elves. This is hard canon, not headcanon. 333dragonb0rned (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The Loremasters Archive written by the same character elaborates, claiming that while it is nested within apocrypha it is infact a separate realm. Try and read multiple sources on the topic. I added a linked realm section that embeds its own article.

"The Infinite Archive is an adjunct realm that lies within the greater fabric of Apocrypha. While as scholars we wish things to be neat and tidy, the reality is more complicated. Many Daedra with sufficient power and will can create a realm. Refer if you will to the writings of Denogorath the Dread Archivist, who claims to have catalogued over 37,000 such instantiations (a number I believe in actuality to be much higher).'16:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

… Okay. “Lies within the greater fabric of.”-unmarked

Again the reverts are never personal or "ego-driven" I just encourage you do more research when you wanna make edits on big multi-layered topics. And not assume that fellow editors are simply missing the obvious when they oppose an edit.Tarponpet (talk) 16:38, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven’t looked much into it, but here’s some key sources on Apocrypha and it’s related realms:

The Mythos: “ Boethiah's blade led me to this portal. The path to the Mythos, Apocrypha's heart.” - Torvesard

The Infinite Panopticon: “A place that exists inside a pocket realm of Apocrypha, the Infinite Panopticon serves as one of Hermaeus Mora's most secure repositories of secret knowledge.” - On the Infinite Panopticon

”…is said to be directly connected to the Mythos” - Infinite Panopticon Loading Screen

The Infinite Archive: “The Infinite Archive is a vast repository of knowledge embedded deep within Hermaeus Mora's realm of Apocrypha.” - Master Malkhest

”The Infinite Archive is an adjunct realm that lies within the greater fabric of Apocrypha.” - Master Malkhest

To me, it appears Apocrypha contains a variety of subrealms within itself. The Infinite Archive, like the Infinite Panopticon, seems to be one of those pocket realms inside of Apocrypha. It wouldn’t be a separate realm like Coldharbour vs Moonshadow, or even Misty Grove vs Revelry, but it’s separate in that you can’t physically travel to it. You need portals to each subrealm, as Malkhest says. BananaKing5 (talk) 18:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I will also say there's a difference between notable locations and what should be mentioned on a geography section. Apocryphas would mainly be about the differences between the endless library and Chroma Incognito sections as those differ in terrains and hazards. Notable locations could be mentioned in those but wouldn necessarily get their mention on Geography section. Instead they should be mentioned moreso in other sections if they're relevant to history and such. Usually a location as important as that within a greater location gets its own page too. See Lore:Coldharbour, Lore:The Pale for examples of what I'm talking about. THough those take additional liberties for how they handle the geography section.Tarponpet (talk) 15:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense now yeah. Travel between realms in Elder Scrolls as a series is notoriously pretty inconsistent - Whether it’s separate by distance or by disjoint planes of Oblivion, no one knows really what portals are other than "convenient to get to the next enemy." In my personal belief the importance of the geography shouldn’t matter as much as it does, since the player and the inhabitants of the world are subject to its geography, just like real life. You wouldn’t say “It’s more important that I live on flat grasslands rather than a rocky hill because it’s closer to me,” you’d say from your POV, "Wow, those mountains are un-tresspassable, hiking through there would be a quest, where am I going from here?" Applying this to Apocrypha, it’d be like saying "Well the Seekers can fly to every island of Apocrypha. They don’t need Black Books like I need them." This makes the question: Can they fly there? The bottom line is they’re in the same realm. In my opinion quests/history being more or less important shouldn’t matter overall to the geography section. Beings living in Apocrypha definitely would think about travel differently than the Dragonborn. 333dragonb0rned (talk) 16:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

A consistent issue you seem to be having is including information only tangentially related to broader topics when we have many pages for more specific topics. The fact Neloth once searched for the Oghma Ifinium, failed, but found a black book that he himself never used doesn't have relevance to the history of the realm of Apocrypha. It is very much so related to the history of those people and items. But it is not broad enough that it's paritiuclary relevant to the location. The same goes for the hint about the location of Red Scar Carvern is what it's name meant symbolically for the Mythic Dawn isn't as relevant to Mehrunes Dagon the Daedric Prince, more the Mythic Dawn themselves, the location, and Vonos. Minor details have a place it just depends on where and how you use them.Tarponpet (talk) 21:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Pieces together tell a story, but pieces separated make a quest, like Mehrunes’ Razor. Yes, they are related tangentially and in a minor way, except the method that usually happens for storytelling in Skyrim is that there is a minor event that leads to a major event. I think for all of recorded Tamriel to have many methods in Online (ESO) then to lose the methods to travel to Apocrypha makes Apocryphic history insubstantial, making the resurfacing of the Black Books substantially more important because that’s the one method of known travel. In my opinion the Black Books are from the player and NPC perspectives Apocrypha, and they are Black Books too, because that is their purpose. 333dragonb0rned (talk) 21:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I feel like you are fundamentally missing the point of a wiki with thousands of articles on specific topics. Our job is to document and provide the information in the stories. Not create the stories. But as for the specific instance. Documenting the exact location of every black book and what happened to it, again belongs to the page for the black books themselves. Not Apocrypha. Otherwise what's the point of even having separate pages.Tarponpet (talk) 22:09, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

(←) I think Tarponpet is correct. That content is fine, but it would be more appropriate on a page like Lore:Black Books. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 22:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Though looking now it appears that the relevant information is already on that page.Tarponpet (talk) 22:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)