Lore talk:Mannimarco

A God

Should it not be mentioned that he was temporarily a god due to the warp in the west?--68.192.188.142 19:17, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Mannimarco emerged from the warp as both a mortal lich who was kicked out of heaven, leaving behind a non-sentient "god," a planet or moon that transforms soul gems. This is revealed in quest documents in oblivion. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs) at 04:11 on 27 July 2008

The Remans

Concerning "the mighty Remans": would this not most probably refer to the Reman emperors as a ruling dynasty? If so, dating the events of the poem will perhaps be easier, as the end of the Reman dynasty is marked by the transition to the Second Era (i.e. 2E0 or 2E1) and the rise of the Akaviri Potentates, starting with Versidue-Shaie. (See 2920, The Last Year of the First Era by Carlovac Townway.) — Unsigned comment by Quill (talk • contribs)

I agree that "mighty Remans" is far more likely to be a reference to the Reman emperors as a group, rather than to Reman I. The plural "Remans"; the fact that the fall of the Remans marked the end of the era and therefore is a natural reference point for dating; with that assumption, the start of Mannimarco's studies coincides with the founding of the Mages Guild; and, finally, then there is no longer a 100 year discrepancy in Mannimarco's age. So I've revamped the paragraph accordingly, which allowed alot of superfluous speculation to be removed. --Nephele^Talk 02:37, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

The Warp in the West

What is this about the Warp in the West? Fan-fiction? 66.167.32.244 05:36, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

No it is an event that occurs after the events of TESII:Daggerfall and is canon.Itaav 12:36, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

Bloodworm Helm in Vahtacen

"In Oblivion, it [the Bloodworm Helm] may be found in the quest Vahtacen's Secret. The player character finds an "Ancient Elven Helm" with physical similarities to the Bloodworm Helm. At the time, however, it has no enchantment. The player definitively gets it during the quest The Bloodworm Helm."

Is there anything confirming that the "Ancient Elven Helm" found in Vahtacen really is the Bloodworm Helm? This info seems to be on this one page only, and I personally doubt that it's correct. I don't see too many "physical similarities", the helm from Vahtacen looks pretty much like an ordinary Elven helmet as far as i remember.--Quill 18:59, 22 February 2008 (EST)

You're absolutely right. The two items are totally unrelated. I've removed it from the article. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 08:08, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Galerion?

During his speech in Oblivion, Mannimarco mentions Vanus Galerion: "I developed a particular fondness for Galerion, ill-preserved though he may be". Does this imply that Mannimarco raised Galerion from the dead?--Willyhead^/t 15:26, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

In context to the rest of his speach I'm pretty sure that he turned Galerion into a worm thrall--Drake3555 22:25, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

No. Galerion is long dead and decomposed, while Mannimarco is still alive. 66.167.32.244 05:30, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Where I come from, zombies are both dead and decomposed. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs) at 13:01 on September 4, 2008

Leaving For Tamriel

The article states that Mannimarco was sent to the mainland for an unknown reason, yet the Galerion article says he was sent on an errand but went AWOL. It also speculates in this article that Galerion went to the mainland as part of his training, but I was under the impression he left in disgust of the psijics' policies on the public use of magic. Can anyone verify the accuracy of the article's speculation?--Qeros 11:41, 9 September 2008 (EDT)

A lich?

He became the first lich (explaining his longevity, as he was approximately 1,130 years old by the beginning of Oblivion). It is not specified if he was the first lich ever or the first human being to make the transformation.

It is not necessary to suppose that he is a lich to explain his longevity, because he is a Mer. He could just naturally be that old. I don't believe there are any sources in TES that definitively establish him as undead. --76.202.248.34 07:53, 11 December 2008 (EST)

When i killed him he looked like a ordinary Altmer. Maybe he's using magic to appear mortal? --Prince of Madness 19:47, 10 January 2009 (EST)

The poem Mannimarco, King of Worms calls him the first lich.74.65.142.202 19:52, 10 January 2009 (EST)

I personally suspect he most likely perfected the method that the other Necromancers are seeking to accomplish in Oblivion and that the liches seen in the game are either incomplete or did not preform the method of becoming one properly. If that is the case then he could intentionally be witholding the information to prevent other full liches like himself from being created or is using it to gain power with the Order of the Black Worm. Possibly by using the secret to demand utter fealty from its members. Either that or it could take hundreds of years to reach the state of lichdom that he is found in in Oblivion. (Gadianzero 22:04, 10 January 2009 (EST))

I sort of take the stance that the poem about Mannimarco takes some artistic liberties, sort of like 2920 took with the physical descriptions of the Tribunal and how that didn't match up to the physical reality of the characters we encounter. (For example Vivec did not wear a red robe or have hair, and Sotha Sil didn't wear a white robe or any robe at all in his deceased appearance) Perhaps Mannimarco is said to be a Lich to make him appear more sinister or evil to the children who grow up listening to the poem. It is entirely possible for a mortal to achieve an age of 1,130 years. Just look at Divayth Fyr of Morrowind. That elf is over 4000 years old, and he's a Dunmer, not an Altmer. He did it entirely through magical mastery, possibly using Necromancy to preserve his flesh, as many Telvanni are rumored to do. If a Dunmer can reach 4000 years without Lichdom, I believe an Altmer can reach 1,130 years. — Unsigned comment by 64.253.223.247 (talk) at 04:29 on 8 January 2010

They've never been consistent on how long the elven races live in The Elder Scrolls. Morrowind seems to imply that it's highly unusual for Mer to live more than a hundred years and that elders of the Telvanni practice illegal necromancy to achieve such longevity. Then you play Tribunal and find out that Barenziah, who is not a necromancer, is over four hundred years old and looks on the high end of middle aged. Fast forward to Oblivion, where the Mages Guild reacts with shock that Mankar Camoran, an Altmer/Bosmer mix, could have been around in the era of Tiber Septim, making him over four hundred years old. Other elves talk about elven longevity, but no one makes it clear as to how long they normally live. The only clue you get is Carahil, the very youthful leader of the Anvil Mages Guild, who took down the Benirus Lich decades ago, thus implying that she is at least in her eighties. I think the problem with consistency is making the characters relate to the player. What human players, who will probably live to, at most, a hundred, consider a long time would not be a long time to a race that lives for a millennium, thus forcing the very human scenario makers into making the story inconsistent for the sake of player immersion.Danjohnston1980 09:43, 28 July 2011 (UTC)DJ

(←) Was he really the first? Lore in Oblivion portrays the Ayleids practicing necromancy (read The Amulet of Kings )and becoming liches (such as the king of miscarcand) long before the first era. — Unsigned comment by 86.159.183.207 (talk) at 12:30 on 8 July 2012

Not to mention the Dragon Priests from an even earlier age, although that may be tied to their Draconic artifacts. It's still a type of lichdom. In fact Durnehviir counts too. Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2013 (GMT)

Removed Notes

• The name Mannimarco comes from the similar but transposed name of a Germanic tribe, the Marcomanni, which the historical Roman Empire defeated. An explanation for this may be that Cyrodiil, and hence the Imperials, are based on the Roman civilization.
• The Marcomanni settlement of Borbetomagus was captured by Drusus in 14 BC. Borbetomagus, one of Germany's oldest cities, means 'settlement in a watery area'. This was eventually transformed into the Latin name 'Vormatia'. Which in time became Worms. Therefore it can be said that a Marcomanni was the ruler (king) of Worms.

I've removed the notes section, as it only contains the above etymology. The link between Mannimarco and the real world Marcomannic settlement of Worms is an interesting connection, but if it is to be included it should be explained better. Are there any objections? Legoless 01:58, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

As interesting as I found this, it seems the Wiki takes a pretty consistent line on possible real-world connections and other speculation. That is to say it's rarely included on lore pages. I personally think that there should be a single, dedicated page recording the tangible real-world influences in the Elder Scrolls universe, even if it just starts out as a bullet point list. Would anyone want to see that, or is that not Wiki territory? If not, I may just take a stab at creating a page like that in my sandbox. Thoughts? --Admos 11:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

There's this page, but we try to keep things to a sensible list. The link between Mannimarco and the Marcomanni is a ridiculous one and doesn't deserve a mention anywhere. rpeh •T•C•E• 12:09, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

necromancers amulet

It is of course in skyrim. There doesn't seem to be a page to link to it yet though. 87.194.26.132 17:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim has only just been released, a page will be made eventually for it. If you want you can add a note to the page or request that a page be made for it.RIM 17:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Necromancer Amulet already exists, add to the page if you want to, and then link to it on relevant pages. --Kiz ^{·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•·} 17:46, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

A third coming?

In The Path of Transendence, the author claims the sovereign of the Order of the Black Worm dislcosed the process of becoming a lich. The process requires transferring the subject's life essence into a phylactery. The book Mannimarco, King of Worms mentions that Mannimarco studied unholy artifacts and was a lich by the time of Galerion's siege. Mannimarco supposedly died during that battle. I infer that the reason he was present during the third era was because his phylactery was'nt destroyed. In extension, I infer the Worm King may be able to "return" again, seeing as the Savior of Kvatch only killed the Worm King's body. Is this (if so, for what reason) implausible? Eclecnec (talk) 00:53, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

Not implausible, but it's also speculation. Sadly it can't be added to the article. —Legoless (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2012 (GMT)

Longevity

His longevity would come from being an Elf, as all Elves have at least 1,000 year lifespans. As long as they take precautions, they can live long, otherwise violence or disease kills them before old age would get them. So him being 1130 during Oblivion would be normal for an elf.--Dro'Bakha (talk) 01:47, 19 December 2012 (GMT)

I'm way late to the game on this reply, so this is more for other people who entertain this idea than for you. That's actually an oversimplification or a downright misconception about Mer. The average Elf doesn't make it anywhere near 1,000 years. The common Mer lives roughly twice as long as a Human at peak health. Newer and more reliable sources than "The Real Barenziah" confirm this, including dev interviews. Mannimarco is definitely sustained by sorcery. Whether or not he's an actual Lich is up for debate, but he's lived far beyond the maximum normal lifespan for a male Altmer. Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2014 (GMT)

Middle Dawn

Hello,

I've changed some information from his background, as the source "Where were you when the dragon broke" displace his birthdate for quite a lot time. This source is very important in the story of Mannimarco, as he seems to have learn the possibility of transcendence during the Middle Dawn. Which probably explain why he started his studies among the Psijic and of the Necromancy.

I know the article needs a more global rewriting. But this omission bugs me from quite some time now. --Lady freyja (talk) 08:39, 4 April 2015 (GMT)

Oblivion Mannimarco is canonly Mannimarco

I've heard a lot of talk that the Mannimarco from Oblivion isn't the real one... But aside from there being no reason for this other than Manostalgia, it says in the official Oblivion game guide that the Mannimarco you see is "Mannimarco himself".--Right under the picture. And don't forget, the Guildmaster to be never destroyed his phylactery. Animperiallich (talk) 02:54, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

That theory stems from the fact that the Necromancer's Moon still exists after you kill Mannimarco, and necromancers still pray to him 200 years later in Skyrim. The King of Worms might be defeated, but the God of Worms is certainly still a thing, i.e. his physical body was destroyed, but not his celestial form. That sort of discussion is best suited to the forums, however. —Legoless (talk) 03:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like I can't come up with a counter argument, then, and there are.--Especially because of the first thing I said being alongside it. I put it here not for discussion, but to refine this knowledge, in a place where it may stay refined. Again, surely you (I've seen you around) know that there are ways around that, and that there is no way around a developer quote? Animperiallich (talk) 20:01, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Where is the developer quote? The Prima guide? Prima has been wrong more often than it has been right, and there's no point reading too much into a turn of phrase like that. It is indeed "Mannimarco himself" that you encounter, but that means very little - especially when you're dealing with a multifaceted god-lich. —Legoless (talk) 20:22, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"World's first of the undying liches"

This sentence in the lede strikes me as a bit odd:

He is described in a poem as "world's first of the undying liches",[2] despite the fact that there had been many immortal liches before him.

Unless I'm missing something else I don't think there's any reason to suppose "first" here means "chronologically first" rather than "most powerful" (think "first among equals" etc). In fact the latter reading seems to fit the poem better. —SeferZohar (talk) 21:08, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I think it's just a simple retcon. Mannimarco is said to be the first for many acts of necromancy: lichdom, soul trapping, flesh magic. He has also previously been treated as the one true source on achieving a state of lichdom. The fact that other liches appear earlier in the timeline is the usual inconsistency we face with many enemy types that are given origin stories which are subsequently contracted; compare Air Atronachs, Mantikoras, Daedric Titans, etc. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sancre Tor Death

Mannimarco does die in Sancre Tor, per his own dialogue.

"Do you really think that death can stop the most powerful necromancer Tamriel has ever known? This is merely a transition! My first step towards true immortality! Now witness my true power! Watch as I rise up from the grave and ascend to godhood!"

He says this in spirit form after the Vestige kills his body. When he is found "alive" later, it is in Coldharbour, where he says:

"I am neither alive nor dead. I am trapped in a gout of ash and bile and swirling vapors. My ears are filled with the screams of a thousand nails being drawn. And the pain! The pain is endless."

Lyris Titanborn can die if you choose to sacrifice her at the end of the main quest, and she is able to escape from Coldharbour and return to Nirn in a living state. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, but to me the "Died" and "Last Known Death" fields sound redundant as currently displayed on the page. If we want to record the Sancre Tor date in the infobox, I would suggest using more concrete wording ("First Death"?). —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind he's a lich, so by definition he's undead and thus incapable of dying. More appropriate wording may need to be used. --Rezalon (talk) 11:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I do agree that "First Death" would be a better box here. As for him being a lich, while "Destroyed" would be more accurate, I think death is preferable due to its more frequent usage. That's why we have Last Known Death for liches we simply physically kill, and Final Death for liches we do some soul shennanigans with. Mindtrait0r (talk) 13:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Even with the different types of Lich deaths, Mannimarco may still be a unique case since he ascended as well. As such, he could be termed more so an immortal deity than an undying lich, and thus not really have a Last Known Death. Especially since the Necromancer's Moon never died in TES IV and the ritual still creates black soul gems. I think "Last Known Death" is still best for the box since the Necromancer's Moon has its own page, but I also think it's a bit muddy with Mannimarco in particular when looking for the most accurate term. BananaKing5 (talk) 05:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)