Lore talk:Nord

Umm...?

What's the source for that Anthropology section? Is it from an in-game book? It's weird how it's totally contradictory with in-game stats. It says they out-compete Imperials, Redguards in intelligence while Oblivion puts them equal to Redguards and lower than Imperials. Khajiit and Argonians, too, are equal or higher in INT than any human race except Bretons. The page also states Nords are one of the least agile races aside from Orcs, yet they have better agility in the game than the Imperials and Bretons and are equal to the Dark Elves and High Elves. — Unsigned comment by 24.145.154.41 (talk) at 01:20 on 13 April 2007 (GMT)

Yeah, this is a little odd. The Redguard article says they compete with the smartest of the Nords. This one says they are smarter than Redguards. — Unsigned comment by 217.77.52.251 (talk) at 20:55 on 11 October 2007 (GMT)

Funny. Pogrom mentioned in text is a russian word. — Unsigned comment by 69.146.62.185 (talk) at 15:54 on 28 October 2007 (GMT)

Originally, yes. But it's a perfectly valid English word now. [1]. — Unsigned comment by Rpeh (talk • contribs) at 16:21 on 28 October 2007 (GMT)

I agree. Redguard page: "As a race, the Redguards are of approximately average human intelligence, competing intellectually with the smartest of Nords, and are generally mentally inferior to Elves." Nord page: "Racially, Nords are of above average human intellect, according to standard Mages Guild tests of intelligence; out-competing Imperials and Redguards in most areas of intelligence." I am confused... I guess I will change. - Some Random Guy. — Unsigned comment by 64.234.34.248 (talk) at 10:09 on 23 May 2009 (GMT)

Removed "By extension, Nords are definitely more intelligent than either Khajiit or Argonians, although unquestionably mentally inferior to Elves." as it directly contradicts the game and there is nothing to support it. Actually the entire part about races' intellects seems to be made up as there is nothing in the game supporting it. — Unsigned comment by 201.75.9.167 (talk) at 13:06 on 15 August 2009 (GMT)

Basis

I know it's speculated that the Imperials were based off of the Romans and Bretons with the French, but are Nords inspired by anything? --Darth NANAME 17:01, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Um, Vikings? Given that they were raiders before settling in Skyrim... Also, most names in Bloodmoon are either directly Scandinavian or Nordic sounding. --Benould^•T•C 17:18, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

That was what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure if I had missed something.--Darth NANAME 17:28, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

There are more basis problems than that. Nevermind a lack of sources, this article has... issues.Temple-Zero 21:22, 20 January 2009 (EST)

There are obvious parallells with the Scandinavian people before the year 1000. Such as names (Regner=Ragnar, Olav etc. are typical Swedish/Norwegian names) and arcitecture (like in Bloodmoon and Bruma). — Unsigned comment by 213.112.193.36 (talk) at 12:12 on 27 April 2009 (GMT)

overhaul?

I've just read this page and saw that most things in the society and anthrpology sections are nothing more than speculation. I'm thinking of giving this page a huge overhaul. Any have any comments? --Apophis2412 06:25, 13 August 2009 (GMT)

At last. Opera? Seriously?Temple-Zero 15:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

An overhaul is definitely needed. Unfounded speculation needs to go, only facts that can be verified ingame should be present. Conflicting information should be noted and refer to which game had each bit of information that conflicts with another game. Anything that's unclear can be checked against the Imperial Library website. Deadlykris 20:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I've copied this page to my own user page and removed the aspects of the anthropology section that I couldn't confirm. Anyone have any comments so far? 06:49, 14 August 2009 (UTC) — Unsigned comment by Apophis2412 (talk • contribs)

Much better so far. It would be great if you could cite the references you use. See my sandbox for examples of how to use citations. –rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 06:57, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

One question I have is if the race page really needs a society page, since none of the other race pages seems to have one. Apophis2412 07:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

There's some good stuff in that section. Ideally, the other races should have a society section added rather than have this page's section deleted. –rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 07:16, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

The Society section does have a jawdropping amount of fanon, however, and reads like a Wikipedia article on the Vikings. What is all this about naval combat?Temple-Zero 22:02, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

(←) Perhaps the best idea would be to just delete the section and start from scratch. Apophis2412 05:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Some of the naval stuff came from PGE1. If it's going to delay getting the article improved then delete the section until it can be done properly. –rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 06:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I've just expanded the history section to encompass the rest of the first era and the second and third eras. I've also removed everything I couldn't confirm by ingame sources. I will add the appropiate references and hyperlinks to the history section tomorrow. As you might have noticed I've also deleted the anthroplogy section. It mostly contained either fanon or information, for example about height, that was completely useless.

There was also a small part about Thuum in the anthropology section. I'll add that to the society page instead.

And one last question, should the Society page also contain some information about Nordic religion?

Apophis2412 17:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed a line about Ysgramor starting the whole elves vs. men thing because the humans had already taken 'Altmora' from its elven population, according to (IIRC) a reference in the Altmer creation myth. I also removed the Nibenay Valley from the list of the First Empire of the Nords (this should probably be distinguished from the First Cyrodilic Empire), as I believe it reflects outdated lore. At the time of the 1st PGE, the history of Cyrodiil in regards to the Ayleids, the Alessian Rebellion and was not developed. The more recent histories do not directly contradict this claim, but they make it exceedingly unlikely. It could be read that the Talosian pro-Skyrim bias of the PGE's author caused him to attribute Alessia's uprising entirely to the intervention of the north, in accordance with the incorrect, yet common belief that the slaves were all Nords anyways.Temple-Zero 16:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the history could do with a bit more detail. The old society section can still be found on my personal page. I'm also going to find some more references to first era Skyrim. Apophis2412 18:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Is Solstheim perhaps the last place where the early Nords and Aldmer clashed? From Fall of the Snow Prince: Battle of the Moesring was to be the final stand between Nord and Elf on our fair island. Led by Ysgramor, we had driven the Elven scourge from Skyrim, and were intent on cleansing Solstheim of their kind as well. Our warriors, armed with the finest axes and swords Nord craftsmen could forge, cut great swaths through the enemy ranks. Apophis2412 18:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

(←) Interesting pieces of information that should still be added: Nerevar and the Dunmer, Clan Direnni, Nordic invasion of High Rock, Solstheim, Skaal animal worship. — Unsigned comment by Apophis2412 (talk • contribs) at 13:47 on 19 August 2009(GMT)

The Battle of Glenumbria Moors should certainly be in there.Temple-Zero 18:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I won't be around for the next two days to update this page. I do plan to mae a very large update to this page on monday however.15:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC) — Unsigned comment by Apophis2412 (talk • contribs)

Government?

Can someone please explain to me how they elect their leaders? I understand the Moot is comprised of nobles and military generals, and when the King has no more heirs they elect a new family... Right? — Unsigned comment by 69.140.170.109 (talk) at 05:05 on 13 August 2011 (GMT)

I don't have any solid evidence to support this, but I assume the Moot would elect a new family, unless the King himself appoints his next-of-kin. Rhoan 18:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Further Research

There was a recent edit conflict on this article over a line of unsourced text found on this article. The line in question is: "Further research into their oral traditions has lead to the conclusion that the All-Maker is their version of Alduin.. " Added in this edit, it appears that if this note were to be true, it'd be found in a line of game dialogue. However, the way this line is written makes it appear to be that this was the editor's personal opinion on the subject. Any more thoughts on this issue? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 20:50, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I say it was a valid removal, and leave it off until a source can be provided. I don't think I've ever seen that proposition. This whole page is going to be revamped sometime in the next couple months, and if there's nothing to support that proposition then, it's going to get cut anyways. Minor Edits 21:38, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

The High King's death is a subjective topic

Depending on who you ask, the High King was either "murdered" or "defeated". Given the subjective nature of it, I'm going to change the wording of that piece to reflect it. As it stands right now, all it says is that he was "murdered".Frostyinferno016 21:10, 10 December 2011 (UTC)FrostyInferno016

Alduin / Akatosh conflict in Nordic mythology

I'm not sure how accepted this information is going to be, but with the recent addition of Skyrim to the Elder Scrolls lore, I think this article needs to be updated in the Nordic pantheon.

Alduin is NOT Akatosh, and I site the wonderful written work , Alduin is Real, and He Ent Akatosh, by Thromgar Iron-Head. While uneducated, Thromgar makes the point that the Nordic understanding of Alduin is a seperate tale than that of Akatosh. Nords worship Akatosh AS Akatosh. Alduin The World-Eater is a seperate entity.

The Akatosh Dichotomy by Alexandre Simon is an Imperial interpretation of the Akatosh/Alduin relation, but as the author is biased towards the Imperials limited understanding of the Nordic culture, I find this incorrect. If anyone objects to me editing the article to accommodate this lore change, please let me know. Merry Christamas! Rhoan 18:13, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Varieties of Faith in the Empire made this distinction clear long before Skyrim was even on the drawing board. --87.115.180.223 18:14, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The wording in the book still states Alduin as a "variation" of Akatosh, and not as his own being. There's a distinction there at least, so I won't touch the article until I know what I'm doing more. Merry Christmas everyone. Rhoan 18:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Varieties of Faith seems to have been written by someone living outside Skyrim and simply repeating what he'd heard. Alduin is Real and events in-game makes it pretty clear that Alduin and Akatosh to be separate entities. Whether it's a retcon or always intended that way is open to debate. The correct lore is pretty clear, but the confusion definitely needs mentioning. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:51, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I love it when the developers make our job easy by making their own lore unreliable and contradictory! --87.115.180.223 20:42, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Not necessarily contradictory, just nuanced. I'll stick this back in a sandbox and incorporate all the new Skyrim info. Minor Edits 05:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

(←) I'm not sure if I'm out of line (Still learning the formatting), but I have added a verfication needed template to the conflicting lines for readers reference until this is all sorted up. Rhoan 20:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Not at all; it's going to take some time to update this page. Minor Edits 22:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Changes for Skyrim

This article has become quite large; if you think you can communicate the same info anywhere more efficiently, chop away. I didn't do more than allude to the Forsworn or many of the events of the Fourth Era because the article was long enough as it was, but I suppose some more elaboration could be done if people think it would be appropriate to do so. As always, image placements could look terrible on other screens, so changing those may be appropriate. Might be a few typos in the mix despite my proof-reading, so keep an eye out. So ... yeah. Hope it's an overall improvement. Minor Edits 10:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

french word

Is it worth noting that nord is french for north Andil the mage 17:35, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

No; as a general rule, etymologies are deemed irrelevant unless the source language is a TES invention. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 15:06, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Besides, nord means also north in German an for sure in other languages as well. — Unsigned comment by 85.181.3.254 (talk) on 12 June 2012

Religion

I thought it odd that under the religion section, nowhere is Talos mentioned. If the Nords are ready to begin a civil war based upon the forbidden worship of their god Talos, shouldn't that be included? Or did I miss something? — Unsigned comment by 99.48.4.144 (talk) at 16:07 on July 31, 2012

He is mentioned: "Today, Ysmir is the name by which Nords recognize the divinity of Talos, and may be used more generally to refer to any Shezarrine." Earlier in the page under "The Nordic Pantheon", it says "The chief of the Nordic Pantheon of Skyrim is Shor. The Nords know Shor as the king of the gods, a champion of men in their struggles against the Elves. They believe he was treacherously slain by elven devils, yet continues to bestow favor on his people by aiding them with immortal champions, sometimes called Shezarrines, including Ysmir, another member of the Nordic pantheon." So yes, he is mentioned.

If you think the events of Skyrim should be mentioned more, feel free to edit the article or suggest some additions on this talk page. Vely^►t►e 20:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) May I also point out this paragraph, which states a possibility on why the Nords continue to worship Talos, in response to the statement the Anon made about the Civil War starting?

"In Nordic society, the Dragonborn is an archetype for what a Nord should be, and any Dragonborn is treated with a deep respect. A Dragonborn can not only wield the power of the thu'um like other Tongues, but can also absorb the souls of dragons, as well as knowledge of the thu'um, thereby achieving in a short time what it takes others a lifetime to learn. The "Dragonborn Emperors" were able to rely on this cultural influence to cement the fealty of the Nords, while the Emperors of the Fourth Era were not. It is likely because of this that so many Nords are unwilling to give up the worship of Talos, even in the face of a ban by the Empire." Snowmane^{(talk•email)} 20:23, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Tamrielic human ethnic diversity

I've been posting this around the net, collecting feedback from the various lore communities before eventually being banned for wrongthink. I'm trying to keep it lore consistent, with racial descriptions for the more obscure peoples taken from Arena era lore, or old item descriptions. All valid criticism welcome.

• Improved with input from the lore community

• Lore notes on Ethnicities of Tamriel

If you are the sort who likes deep lore, I have gone out of my way to dig up the deep dirt on Tamriel's human population and it's actually a lot more diverse than you think. What follows as little head canon as possible, and all of these groups have been mentioned in canonized sources and therefore can be assumed to exist in game. Remember that this is just how things look on my side of the Dragon Breach. If you do not like how I have described these groups please let me know. You may know more in regards to the subject than I do.

Akaviri: The Asians of Nirn. According to developer "Slateman" (Alan Nanes) they survived the Tsaesci holocaust thanks to the intervention of Tosh Raka. If the more lore friendly items in the Creation Club are taken as canon, Akaviri humans are not entirely unknown in Tamriel by the fourth era and an be created without the excuse of a Dragon Breach in Skyrim.

Kreath: One of the proto Imperial groups, the Men-of-Kreath are somewhat Germanic, being a mix of both Nordic and Imperial stock. Considering that in lore Falkreath is full of graveyards and is actually larger than current Germany in terms of landmass we can guess that this the home of the Kreath.

Nords: Baltic/Viking kingdoms. The Nords can easily be identified as Tamrielic translations of real world Nordic peoples. Whiterun resembles Sweden in terms of politics, while Windhelm is ruled by a guy who may as well be Varg Vikernes, so Norway. Riften is full of trolls, so there you have Finland.

Barbarians: WIld Nords. Not all Nords live in places like Whiterun. Some are every bit as savage as Reachmen. Those dudes who live in caves you encounter all over Skyrim are often comprised of such individuals, many of whom probably retain their frost resistance if you are doing tabletop.

Breton: Daggerfall (England), Camlorn (Wales), Glenumbra (France), Rivenspire (Scotland) Stormhaven (Ireland.) Some here still practice an ancient form of magic known as Galenic Druidism. Languages spoke in High Rock include Cryodilic Standard, Glenumbrian, and various Galenic tribal dialects. The people here revere the Elven Pantheon rather than the 8 Divines, and prayers and sermons are often delivered in the Elven tongue by the clergy. In High Rock there is no division between Man and Mer, which is a shock to foreigners in the 4th era.

Rihadi: The Men-of-Rihad are a Pre Imperial group native to Hammerfell. They resemble Arabs and were absorbed into the Redguard. Just assume Redguard who look more Arab than Black are these dudes.

Yokudans: Yokudan culture is the dominent cultural force in Hammerfell as well as what is left of Yokuda. This group eradicated the Keptu and subjugated the Rihadi in ages past.

Wrothgarians: Also called the Forsworn or Reachmen. Their shamans are called Druadach, and practice a twisted form of Galenic Druidism. Reachmen of Wrothgar and Skyrim resemble Slavs, while the Reachmen who dwell in High Rock resemble Picts.

Nibenians: Natives of the Nibenay Basin and more generally Eastern Tamriel. Before Talos altered history they were much like their Akaviri ancestors in terms of culture and appearance, but when the 9th Divine altered the history of the land he also altered the history of the people of that land. The Nibenese of Talos's new timeline had all but forgotten their heritage. They were left as little more than savages, their history and culture wiped out in an instant. Some Nibenians migrated to the cities, particularly Bravil and Lleyawiin, and bred with the Colovians, while others remained as they had found themselves, becoming the nomads that inhabit the Basin. They somewhat resemble Native Americans, making use of warpaint and other more tribal elements of pre-Imperial culture.

Colovians: A Pre Imperial human group with a distinct dialect and architectural style. They resemble Greeks and Romans, even moreso than most Imperials. In fact, Colovians consider themselves the only true Imperials in all of Cyrodiil, and often consider the current multicultural state of things in the Empire to be an embarassment.

Cyrodilics: The modern Imperial Citizen is a mix of various ethnic backgrounds and is oft considered a mutt race by the Colovians and Nibenians. For their part, Cyrodilics consider the Colovians to be snobbish and the Nibenians to be primitive. These guys comprise the majority of Western Cyrodiil.

Velothi Nomads: Nibenians of Morrowind near Blacklight. They resemble Eskimos. They are just tribal Nibenians with Skaal clothing. These people are disregarded by the Empire and hunted by the Nobles of Blacklight for sport. They worship Kynareth and are led by Ice Shamans.

Rimmenian: These guys call themselves Akaviri but more resemble Persians than Asians. In any case, while the people of Rimmen Kingdom may think of themselves as Tsaesci, the rest of the humans in Elsweyr just consider themselves citizens of their nation. The typical Elsweyrian human is a descendant of Rihadi refugees from the Yokudan invasion and is not related to the descendants of Akavir. Despite this, all human Natives of Elsweyr are called Rimmen because the term is a pejorative meaning "From the rim of the Empire." These guys resemble the peoples of India.

Gypsies: Also known as Rema, the Gypsies of Tamriel are featured in Redguard and other really old lore, particularly in regards to item descriptions.

Zenithites: A hereditary order of Priests dedicated to a religion that is entirely focused on money. Surely there is no group like this in the REAL world... — Unsigned comment by 73.71.138.152 (talk) at 00:21 on 26 July 2020 (UTC)

This discussion may be better suited to our forums. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:28, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Speculation on the Time of Kings and Dragon Priests

I'm not sure where to really put this since speculation isn't lore, but there was some legitimate lore I wanted to mention first. I just noticed a direct connection between Miraak and Ysgramor that I haven't seen emphasized before. Ahzidal was said to have been the enchanter that equipped Ysgramor and the Five Hundred Companions during the Return. He also became an Acolyte Priest of Miraak later in life. Meanwhile, Miraak was approached by the three heroes of the Dragon War to fight against Alduin. It isn't stated that Ahzidal enhanced his own lifespan with magic (beyond the normal level of Dragon Priest Life Support), so is it reasonable to say that both Ysgramor and Miraak were within one or two generations of each other? It would make sense if the Dragon Priests immediately turned tyrannical upon arriving in Skyrim. The Dragon War book speculates it took a series of weak kings, though this doesn't necessarily mean they reigned for long. This connection from Ysgramor to Miraak could possibly be noted somewhere, maybe the Miraak lore page, if anyone thinks it matters?

That said, this is where the speculation begins. This makes me curious if the relationship between kings and dragon priests has ever been defined? The Dragon War book said they were nearly equal in power, but as far as I know, the Dragon Cult isn't mentioned in any story of the Return, and the Five Hundred Companions or kings descended from Ysgramor are never mentioned in any tale of the Dragon War. The Dragon War book mentions that Ysgramor brought the religion to Tamriel, so maybe his descendants lost power to the Dragon Cult until King Harald reunited Skyrim? It is odd to me that the ruling power of Skyrim could shift from the mighty Ysgramor, to the Dragon Cult, to rebellion against the cult, all within the lifespan of Ahzidal, especially since he had already been through all of his training before Ysgramor even arrived. (To be fair, quick changes in power do happen in real life. I'm looking at you, Monarchy-Republic-Empire-Monarchy-Republic-Empire-Republic 1790's-1870's France.)

If Ysgramor was indeed a Dragon Priest, as is commonly theorized, maybe this timeline actually fits way better than I think. But The Dragon War book makes it seem like the kings (after Ysgramor, maybe) were not Dragon Priests, so maybe the split happened directly after Ylgar died, if the Dragon Priests considered themselves able to inherit his authority? Personally I think either Ahzidal enhanced his lifespan despite it not being mentioned, or Ylgar's son failed to maintain power over the Dragon Priests. Or maybe the Atmorans arrived first, set up a monarchy behind Ysgramor, then the Dragons arrived soon afterwards and the Dragon Cult just took over immediately. Ylgar maybe just maintained control of the Five Hundred Companions, not Skyrim. BananaKing5 (talk) 07:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)