Template talk:Lore Magic Footer

Adding institutions

I came here to actually remove Way of the Voice, since it's a philosophy regarding the thu'um's usage, and not a distinct 'type of magic', but now I actually would rather expand this navbox rather than shrink it. Mainly, I'd like to change to the title to just 'Magic', and add a row for Institutions, at least Mages Guild, Winterhold, Synod, College of Whisperers, Graybeards, and any others I'm overlooking. Thoughts? -- Hargrimm^(T) 06:34, 16 January 2014 (GMT)

What about a change from "Types of Magic" to "Topics in Magic"? Jeancey (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2014 (GMT)

How's this look: -- Hargrimm^(T) 19:39, 16 January 2014 (GMT)

I have no issues with it. Jeancey (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2014 (GMT)

Bumping this on RC for any more comments. Otherwise I'll implement the above changes tomorrow. -- Hargrimm^(T) 08:27, 17 January 2014 (GMT)

Great idea. Support. --Jimeee (talk) 11:16, 17 January 2014 (GMT)

Order of the Black Worm

The Order of the Black Worm were never a proper institution of magic. They were a cult of necromancers allowed to usurp their mortal enemies by their leader. Once he was gone the order was removed from power and the Mages Guild restored to where they belonged in the eyes of the people. They were only ever recognised by some Imperials, and certainly not the outlying provinces as the school of magic in the Empire. You can see this during the events leading up to the invasion of Coldharbour by the recognition given to the Mages Guild by all three Alliance leaders. Their temporary position as 'chartered' ignores the fact they were never a school or an institution of magic, they didn't teach or take students, they were simply Manimarco's personal necromantic followers given an undeserved status they never fulfilled due to his personal opinion and expulsion of the Mages Guild. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 22:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

The Worm Cult is as much a magical institution as the Psijic Order or the Greybeards, and accepts students far more readily. It aims to not only destroy the Mages Guild, but to usurp it. Guild Memo on Soul Trapping illustrates the effect that the group can have on the practice of magic in Tamriel. The group is a serious rival which has persevered and trained apprentices for centuries. They're far more than just Mannimarco's lackeys. The fact that they held an Imperial charter is a big deal; the alliances might not have liked it, but for a period the Worm Cult were the de jure institute for magic on Tamriel, taking over the Arcane University even before the Daedric occupation.

Maybe it's not the most socially acceptable group to join for magical training outside of Nibenay, but there's nothing to suggest they don't take novices. Even in Oblivion we see mass defection to the cult from mages seeking to practice necromancy. The Order of the Black Worm is far more established and historically relevant as an institution than the isolationist College of Winterhold or the Pact propaganda machine that was Shad Astula. —Legoless (talk) 23:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The Order of the Black Worm was still legalized and allowed to take the place of the Mages Guild as teachers of magic and royal advisors under Imperial law. No matter how briefly the "Fellowship of Anchorites" held its charter, it still became an official institution of magic for that time. But more to point, in The Order of the Black Worm and Guild Memo on Soul-Trapping it's also established that they were in fact teaching and taking on new members, so they were already an unofficial institution before the charter. The Mages Guild even admits that the Order had become a direct rival, rather than a passing threat like other necromantic cults. The Order is arguably the first organized school of necromancy. Croaker (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I reiterate, they never took students. Students and schools don't seek to make their students have one-dimensional outlooks on life, they try to make them rounded capable individuals, and those that follow a code or practice reveal that to potential students. The 'apprentices' and 'novices' in the Worm Cult are referred to as cultists and rightly so. They seduce with promises of power which they break; yes they are taught magic, but not freely, they are indoctrinated to accept and obey Mannimarco as their leader, or at least his ideology, and they are to use their power to benefit the cult and no-one else. Their place in this table cannot solely be based on a single short span of power, their recognition as an institution must also come from sources outside the cult, of which there are none. No free source accepts their position, they all view them as usurpers who have occupied a position by force that they neither deserve nor fulfill, and all expect, as happened, that when the war was over the cult was kicked out of the city, necromancy banned, and the Mages Guild restored to its position. There are other factions and cults that have existed for centuries, who also wish to claim power, who take and train 'apprentices' but none of them are given the recognition they desire because that recognition is unwarranted. The College of Winterhold is an institution of learning, it is recognised by almost every person of power in Skyrim, and the PGE. Shad Astula may be geared towards preparing its students for taking part in the War, but it is recognised as a place of learning by outside sources such as the Mages Guild. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:40, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems to me like that's far too narrow a definition of "institution". The Order of the Black Worm linked above, along with the abundant evidence of guild membership sniping, is plenty of evidence that they are a serious magical organisation which aims to rival the Mages Guild. That alone makes them more significant to the topic of magic than half the other groups listed on this thing. Being a cult of personality for Mannimarco doesn't negate the group's historical role in the furtherance of magical study; after all, the Guild was basically a Galerion cult for hundreds of years. —Legoless (talk) 01:05, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe so, but any definition of institution that includes cults is too broad. The cult wishes to eradicate and replace the Mages Guild yes, but they have no desire to assume its role as teachers or scholars, they simply want the power. They are in all truth what they are commonly referred to, not what they call themselves, especially seeing as they hide their true purpose when claiming to be an 'Order'. There is in truth no evidence they are a serious magical organisation, for such a claim would need to show they cared about all schools of magic. And again, the only reason the Mages Guild has to worry about them is because they make wild promises of power which they cannot ever hope to keep, and have no intention of doing so. Their place belongs as a major topic under necromancy, seeing as they don't even represent all necromancers, and if there is a page documenting the guilds and societys that held positions of power. They do not belong in this table for based on a few years of power while ignoring the extremely large pool of evidence that says they were nothing of what they claimed to be. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:41, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we can just rename that row of the template to "Organizations" instead? As the guy who originally added that row, I certainly didn't have in mind as hard-line a stance as you seem to about what strictly qualifies a group to be included as an "Institution". I think the Order is certainly relevant and should be in the template, as it has existed for just about as long as the Mages Guild itself, and as noted above was widely influential, at various degrees of official recognition and power, over many centuries. And if "caring about all schools of magic" was required to be an Institution, that would also clearly disqualify the Greybeards, who have been there uncontested this whole time. -- Hargrimm^(T) 03:10, 7 August 2016 (UTC)